Self Management

This feature only applies to episodes with transcripts, which is a small number at this time.

Pasteur Byabeza on transitioning to self-management at Davis College

...Lisa Gill: Pastor, thank you for being here. I know that at Davis College you decided to use holacracy as a self management system. And I think many listeners of the podcast will be familiar with holacracy. But I think it would be really interesting if you could share with...more
...e did many training sessions with expert practitioners, and we researched a lot on many other companies and organisations that are already practicing self management. Based on that, we came to a conclusion that self management is worth trying. So the next step was then to test that hypothesis. And based on the fee...more
...e researched a lot on many other companies and organisations that are already practicing self management. Based on that, we came to a conclusion that self management is worth trying. So the next step was then to test that hypothesis. And based on the feedback we received with the early success of the new system in...more
...ited today, what are some of the biggest shifts? Pasteur Byabeza: You would see a lot, of course. The difference is that before we transitioned into self management, standardisation and centralisation with our academics and curriculum were the norm. So decision making and access to information were a privilege of...more
... no feeling of fulfillment, and that's what you need when you are an employee somewhere. But now, it's completely the opposite of how things were. So self management - in a short period of time - has resulted in empowerment of every employee. There's more transparency, more accountability, more freedom to think di...more
... a self managed circle. For a self managed team to be able to make good decisions, they really need to have all the information. Before we shifted to self management, as I've said, only a handful of people at the top had access to information and people at the bottom of the pyramid could not understand the rationa...more
...Lisa Gill: Thank you for sharing. It's really interesting to hear that some real themes are coming through since shifting to self management, and information is being distributed. So suddenly, everyone has much more transparent access to information, and also the power to take part in and ...more
...Lisa Gill: I'm curious to ask a follow up question about your kind of second point. Regarding the skills that you've noticed are needed to work in a self managing way - around active listening, and upgrading communication skills in general in order to create this climate of psychological safety. Did you do trai...more
...s? Those are very simple techniques that I believe people can be very intentional about and develop. So they were really helpful in our transition to self management....more
...Lisa Gill: And I'm curious also because this is the first African self managing organisation we've had on the podcast. And I know when you and I spoke before you shared with me some reflections as a Rwandan on how certain aspects...more
... Gill: A quick reflection on that theme - because I've heard almost exactly the same thing from people in India, for example, when they have explored self management - and I'm wondering if that dynamic you're describing is a product of colonisation? Or if that's really an inherently African dynamic - do you see wh...more
...t is also deeply rooted into our culture. And I believe, when you mentioned things like united teamwork, solidarity, they work a lot in favour of the self management paradigm....more
...other change, of course, you expect some people to resist. I would say it took some of my colleagues a lot of time to fully embrace the philosophy of self management. You see, as you know, operating in a self managed team requires learning and unlearning certain things. So I can confidently say that some of my col...more
...rent needs and desires. So, I've seen some people - especially my former managers - behaving from a place of insecurity when we started rolling out self management. You see, a lot of energy had to be spent. We invested in getting everybody on board, and we faced resistence from one team, with some people sending...more
...er challenges, but that's actually the main one. Another challenge that I believe we face is that no other higher learning institution had practiced self management before. So that was a very big challenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning instituti...more
... challenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning institution that practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it...more
...that practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it really something that can work in a higher learning institution, or other organisations, or practice holacracy from other...more
...ce holacracy from other fields? Does it work for our business? We don't know, we don't have any other higher level institution that already practiced self management. So sometimes people may not want to try it out. Or maybe they can be reluctant because they don't have a reference. And that was really one of the ...more
... more productive. We've seen that they start having job fulfillment - you know, you enjoy what you're doing. You feel happy - that's the freedom that self management has come along with. That contentment, in that the need to, you know, do something more - to be creative, to innovate, the need to utilise your poten...more
...ise your potential to the fullest. You see all of that, and many other things that I don't mention are things that have come along with this shift to self management. And I am confident - as I said. I hope that the future is going to be bright. ...more
... for people listening who are perhaps in higher learning institutions, or in schools or universities or any kind of situation where they're exploring self management as well - what would be your words of advice or encouragement to someone who has walked this path? Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that's interesting. Of cours...more
...people on this journey of discovering new ways of working together. The first one is it's very important to set up institutional culture that fosters self management. For our kids, we have this amazing cultural code - which is built around seven pillars. I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I b...more
...ars. I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I believe if they are really well practiced, they can really be a strong foundation for self management. We practice radical transparency. That means being open and honest with others and ourselves. That's really important, and has really helped us a g...more
... those three together have really made a tremendous impact in our transition. So it's very important to set up institutional cultures that can foster self management. Another piece of advice to our to listeners is that you shouldn't expect perfect inclusion. So what I mean here is that there is no single manageme...more
...Lisa Gill: Thank you. I'm so appreciative, listening to you, because it's amazing to me that you're quite early in this self management journey - and yet talking to you it's as if I'm talking to someone who has been doing this for four years or something. You know, I've spoken to peop...more
...yet talking to you it's as if I'm talking to someone who has been doing this for four years or something. You know, I've spoken to people from mature self managing organisations that share these level of insights. And it sounds like you've learned so much already about what it takes to make this shift - some of ...more

Lisa Gill and Mark Eddleston celebrate 50 episodes of Leadermorphosis

...dleston: So Lisa, I imagine that the the listeners are really really curious about how you came to be so passionate and knowledgeable on the topic of self-management and progressive organisations. So yeah, how did that happen? Lisa Gill: Let me see if I can find a kind of concise way to summarise it. I guess, orig...more
... Karin Tenelius the co-founder of 'Tuff Leadership Training' in January 2016 and learned about how she had been helping transform companies to become self-managing since the 90s, and she and I started to write a book together about the stories of ten or so companies she'd transformed and in the process of that I...more
...a quick project, but actually, it's taken that long to really work out what our unique perspective is. So now the title is 'Mooseheads: Stories about self-managing organisations from Sweden', and it's looking at self-managing organisations, rather than from a structures and processes perspective, more from a per...more
...work out what our unique perspective is. So now the title is 'Mooseheads: Stories about self-managing organisations from Sweden', and it's looking at self-managing organisations, rather than from a structures and processes perspective, more from a perspective of: how do we need to change relationally? How do we ...more
...nterviewing some of the companies and then I also brought in my lens of how this fits with the wider world that's emerging in terms of principles for self-managing organisations. So the book is with a publisher currently and it's almost there, so it should be coming out this year in 2020. So yeah, watch this spa...more
...ak preview as well, so I can confirm it's something to be excited about. I can't wait for that to be released. So that's a bit about how you got into self-management and progressive organisations. Now, I guess the listeners might also be curious a little bit about Lisa Gill outside of self-management and progressi...more
... you got into self-management and progressive organisations. Now, I guess the listeners might also be curious a little bit about Lisa Gill outside of self-management and progressive organisations. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about you. And one thing that struck me when we met is that you're kind of exactly the ...more
...st. So I guess that's the wholeness aspect ticked from 'Reinventing Organisations'. What are you passionate about? What are your interests outside of self-management and progressive orgs? Lisa Gill: I'm happy to hear that I'm the same in life as I am on the podcast and I think that is something that I've worked at...more
...or it, but it still has a bit of catching up to do I think, in terms of where Europe's got to. And so, just looking at the number of self-organising, self-managing companies over the last few years, and the familiarity with some of these concepts, I think has shifted a lot in the collective consciousness or term...more
...ions of that and really starting to feel what it actually takes to becoming a 'teal' organisation, or really embracing those threads of wholeness and self-management and evolutionary purpose. And I think I really liked the way that Edwin Jansen from Fitzii framed it, where he said that at Fitzii they've been four ...more
...ii framed it, where he said that at Fitzii they've been four years into their 'teal journey' I think, and he described these three stages of adopting self-management: the first being head - the kind of intellectual stage, and then the second being heart. Once you've read Reinventing Organisations, or once you've ...more
...e shift, the focus perhaps from the beginning, and this is something I recognise in myself a few years ago, when I first experienced transitioning to self-management, I learned about the new practices and then in my second experience I thought, okay, so we just apply those practices. And I think it was thanks to o...more
... because there's so much richness in what she shared in terms of the the inner shifts that have to happen, as well as the sort of systemic shifts for self-management to really take place. I think one of the earliest episodes I remember a shift happening in me was with Helen Sanderson and I think there was somethin...more
...ng Structures and Holacracy, Corporate Rebels, Aaron Dignan, Enspiral, Ouishare: anybody who's anybody in the world of progressive organisations and self-management. Have you celebrated that? Lisa Gill: Yeah, I think I could probably be better at celebrating. I'm quite a self-critical person so I'm often onto the...more
...ation in India, have reached out and said: "Ah, I'd really like to talk to Ved to understand how he's navigated those challenges culturally, and what self-management can look like there. So that's been really interesting. And then the example that I mentioned, kind of generically then, was a guy called Jorge from ...more
... been inspired by many of the guests, and they had been implementing some of the practices and their own versions of it, and now their own version of self-management is starting to mature and develop. And so he just reached out to say: "Hey, just wanted to let you know we exist, we're doing this and I'm setting up...more
...m working with clients, and then particularly when you're working with a client, and there's some people in the team who are really into the ideas of self-management and looking to be a champion in their team or organisation for the transition, and Leadermorphosis is one of the first resources that I point them to...more
...h, those are three great, great episodes there. Now, you answered the last question with "it depends" and I find that when people ask questions about self-management, very often that's the answer I give. So the space that we work in is maturing, how do you imagine it might be looking over the next year, and partic...more
...f Nearsoft, is interested in looking at employee ownership, for example, because I think if you follow the logical conclusion, if you follow one from self-management is to get to employee ownership. I think that's an option. But he's really interested, and I know others are too: looking at employee ownership in it...more
...obably the hardest work I've ever done. And yeah, I think there's no pill; there's no capsule that you can swallow and that's it away you go - you're self-managing, and it's funny: For organisation A, could well be fatal for organisation B and I think that's quite frustrating, perhaps for leaders when they're ch...more

Miki Kashtan on the three shifts needed for self-managing organisations to thrive

...nomy. And more recently, I think she's becoming really influential as someone contributing to the discussion around what it takes to work together in self managing organisations and communities. So I'm really excited to share this conversation with you, because it's really altered the way I think about collabora...more
...lieves are the three fundamental shifts that need to happen within us as humans and the systems that we're operating in, in order to collaborate in a self managing way. So it's a really deep conversation about navigating power, about mindset shifts, new levels of dialogue and self awareness. It's kind of impossi...more
...is is a movement that you're very active in. And I think it's a technology, if you could call it that, that comes up a lot in the conversation around self managing organisations as something that's a really good practice for people to develop and get skilled at in order to have communication that's more human, m...more
...cation that's more human, more adult-adult. So what for you is most inspiring about the potential of Nonviolent Communication in organisations and in self management? Miki Kashtan: Thank you. I think in the moment, as you're asking this, what comes to me most strongly, is that the focus on needs is a very powerful...more
... precariousness that people lived in. So fundamentally, our structures are not designed to attend to needs. And if I want a really resilient, robust self managing system, sooner or later, it will need to realign itself with needs. Because otherwise, there comes a moment where it's like, wait a minute, we're sel...more
...ing system, sooner or later, it will need to realign itself with needs. Because otherwise, there comes a moment where it's like, wait a minute, we're self managing, for what purpose? To increase the profit of one person somewhere that can then accumulate? Why would we do that? So the way that so called tradition...more
...Lisa Gill: Yeah, that's so interesting, because so many people working in self managing systems, have this complaint and say to me: "the one thing we're really struggling with is, you know, how do we get people to take a shared ownership...more
...ne thing we're really struggling with is, you know, how do we get people to take a shared ownership of the company? To really step in? We've declared self management, why are these jobs that are maybe less desirable or something, why aren't people really owning them?" And and when you shared what you shared just t...more
...this whole topic of power, and patriarchy, which I know is something that you've written about and explored at length as well. And, again, I think in self managing systems, this is another total paradigm shift. And it's more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." Th...more
...re because if you don't change the systems and the agreements within which you operate, then it requires individuals to be saints. So ultimately, for self management to really be institutionalised, you need to have clear agreements, clear criteria, about when you do this, when you do that, how you function and all...more
...ts that are necessary I think are so helpful to bear in mind. And I think you touched on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and pro...more
...touched on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and processes. You know, it's sort of free for all. And I think there are some parall...more
...re the resources come from, and how do they get distributed? What happens to them? And there are many, many, many different ways, and if you are in a self managing system, you need to work out, especially if the sum total of how people want to use the resources that are within the organisation – which is not jus...more
...o be worked out. That's the resource flow system. The third system is information flow, which is basically about how information moves around. And in self managing systems, information flow is vital and critical because if you want people to make good decisions everywhere within the organisation, if you really w...more
...lled. And so you need to actually do something for information to flow. And then the fourth system is feedback, which is also absolutely crucial in a self managing environment. Because if you are over here, self managing something, and there isn't feedback that constantly comes, you will silo. And you will funct...more
...ation to flow. And then the fourth system is feedback, which is also absolutely crucial in a self managing environment. Because if you are over here, self managing something, and there isn't feedback that constantly comes, you will silo. And you will function without sufficient information about the impact of th...more
...pletely replicate the existing structures that we have in a patriarchal, capitalist, white supremacist, etc. world. Meanwhile people are trying to do self management and going "why isn't it happening?" It's not happening because you didn't set up the systems and structures to support it in happening....more
...human shifts that need to happen? What can I do as a human being to develop the mindset, the skills, the abilities needed to collaborate in in a more self managing way? Miki Kashtan: I'll start with telling you a story. And through that story, I will pull out a very core principle. I was once working with an org...more
...have talked about... So I guess in closing thoughts, then, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to listeners who are on some kind of self management journey of their own? Miki Kashtan: It can be daunting to make the shifts. I mean, I'm just listening through the ears of someone who hasn't done all...more
...rs of someone who hasn't done all the work that I've done in the last 20 something years. And it's like, "oh my god, maybe I would just rather not do self management". So I want to say, it may be daunting. And in my experience, every step of the way, yields more freedom, and more collaboration, both. So you take b...more

Nand Kishore Chaudhary from Jaipur Rugs on love, collective consciousness and self-management

...ou're talking to people like Frederic Laloux, Doug Kirkpatrick, Miki Kashtan, and you're really interested in taking it to the next level in terms of self-management. And really kind of decentralising. What is important to you about learning more about this and helping the organisation evolve in that way? NK Chaud...more
...the head office in 1999 in Jaipur. People in the head office did not have the understanding about people, processes, and products. At the grassroots, self-management was already there. But at the head office, everyone went for a command and control approach. Nobody understood the importance of the frontline and ev...more
...r company. To further bring speed and scale, we needed to bring simplicity and focus in our business. For this, I started researching and came across self-management principles and then I found: this is my way....more
...Lisa Gill: What are you finding are the biggest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in try...more
...gest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in...more
...n most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become th...more
...wn experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become the ambassadors of the same in our organisation. The second is: to create the right and relevant training programme to br...more
...g programme to bring a mindset change in the whole organisation. So now we are seeking help from people around the world who have already implemented self-management across their organisations....more
...ill: Thank you. I know that you're familiar with the company Yash Pakka and I've spoken to Ved Krishna there and a lot of people have said to me that self-management isn't possible in countries like India, where there's a strong hierarchical culture. I'm curious, what do you think about that? What is your take? Is...more
...est, if this comes together, will give birth to a new humanity. India as a country is a huge talent goldmine, and to harness this enormous potential, self-management would be the key. The youth of new India is highly passionate and all they need is love, direction, and freedom....more
...e satisfaction now that there's proof, right? So what advice would you give to people who are listening? Who, like you, are interested in introducing self-management principles to fulfil the purpose of their organisation even more strongly? What advice would you give them in terms of what you're learning so far? N...more
...lf, the more you will find yourself. The problem is not outside, but inside. And it begins with you. Second, people need love, direction and freedom. Self-management is about empowering the frontline and the doers. We must not forget that they are the heroes and kings of the business....more
...Lisa Gill: I think this is something that I'm learning more and more that if we really want everyone to flourish and create an environment based on self-management principles, it's not going to happen by chance. And it's not going to happen only by introducing new structures. But it's so much about intention and...more
...ux and Doug and Miki, you mentioned what you've learned from Otto Scharmer, for example. Are there other key lessons that you've learned so far about self-management that you think would be useful to share? NK Chaudhary: I think when I meet all these great, great people, I see they are highly conscious people. And...more
...ness, by bringing that mindfulness. And we can only create the new future when we are mindful. So I think consciousness will be the way to bring that self-management. The more conscious the leaders, the more consciousness, self-awareness [there will be in the] staff - it will make a difference. Because the future ...more
... other companies. So the research says that bureaucracy is the biggest problem and the only companies that will survive are those who will go towards self-management. So this is proved by the research....more
... satisfied person. I can create a difference in the life of my people. So I'm very happy that the time has come. And so many people are talking about self-management. I'm really happy to see that....more

Frederic Laloux with an invitation to reclaim integrity and aliveness

...ferent questions now… So, the question we decided we’d like to dig into is this: Thinking about these three ideas that you wrote about in your book (self-management, wholeness and evolutionary purpose), are these intentions going to help us have the difficult conversations that we need to have about the fact that...more
... I do that? I’m trained I should have known.” But we don’t question because of the power structure. F Laloux: It’s interesting because I almost take self-management for a given now. And so, I’m really curious, even in the absence of any power structure that makes us fearful, you know, how could we engage with the...more
...ded in order for us to be able to sit with that question? Because I agree with you that power structures is only one piece of it, but I think even in self-managing organisations… sometimes it seems almost like we need guardrails, you know, things like Nonviolent Communication and practices like this that help us...more
...s that they felt incredibly powerless about them. And it was an incredibly uncomfortable feeling. So these were pretty traditional organisations, not self-managing organisations. These are some of the most powerful CEOs in Brazil. And they realised that they were powerful within a very limited domain of acceptab...more
... I have a good friend in France, Nicolas Hennon, who was a young leader of a fashion brand [Kiabi] and he did amazing things. Like he pushed towards self-management, a huge push for wholeness, very deep listening… And Kiabi, just went through the roof, like in an industry that’s pretty shattered, they were doing...more
...h right now, a really big one, is Decathlon, this sports goods company. They have a top management but it’s sympathetic to a lot of things, you know, self-management and so on. But there have been people at the bottom and the middle of the pyramid who have really been pushing the envelope without asking for permis...more
...hat we’re talking about now, like what are the human things we need to do? Because I think I’ve been experiencing that, you know, just talking about self-management and implementing some kind of structure or some kind of process or some kind of framework is less interesting. It actually seems to me that what make...more
...y.” So I couldn’t agree more with you. I mean, I am a bit of a systems geek, right? And I love to think about these systems like, you know, how could self-managing systems work… but ultimately, this is all just in service to some deep yearning that we have, or some clarity around like, “I will no longer do this....more
... And one way is like, “Wow, this is gonna be hard. This is unprecedented, you know, we’re going against 5,000 years of human conditioning in terms of self-management, real growth pains…” And another way to hold it is, “This is going to be the adventure of a lifetime. And this is going to be fun and deep down, we ...more
... people who don’t know K2K in the Basque Country is this group of people who have helped 60 companies, maybe it might be 80 or 100 companies, move to self-management and they have an amazing track record of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transfo...more
...ord of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transformed a much larger company towards self-management — hugely successful. And it was just so interesting talking to him and then talking to his colleagues who were all saying, “Yeah, this is so incredib...more
...about this amazing company in Sweden, Björn Lundén, this publishing company and the founder is this amazing character. He didn’t read any books about self-management or anything but has designed the company as it is because he knows no other way to be. Why wouldn’t he involve people decisions and so on. And so to ...more
...f have a deep programme to change people’s mindsets.” Maybe another example that comes up often is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, w...more
...ften is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, we train everybody in giving feedback.” And so with Wilber’s quadrants, it’s sort of a behaviou...more
... after a while, they came back and said: “No, we’re not over staffed” and she was furious. And she said, “Yeah, maybe people aren’t mature enough for self-management. This is not working.” And we just looked at it like, yeah, but you are still trying to solve that problem. For them, you are still having a role in...more
...y. Who knows how it’s gonna play out, but I think on all of the three breakthroughs right now that we talked about, it’s been an accelerator, like on self-management. Right? We suddenly realise: people can work from home and we don’t know how many hours they work, and we can sort of trust them. We have no choice b...more
...uge inspiration to me, and many of the people who listen to this podcast, so thank you. Leadermorphosis is a podcast exploring the emerging world of self-managing organisations and radical ways of working. Hosted by Lisa Gill, each episode features a guest thought leader or practitioner offering a unique perspe...more

Amy Edmondson on psychological safety and the future of work

... this four-box model about how to create what you call a “Learning Zone”. Because I think, especially when I‘m talking to people about exploring more self-managing or Agile ways of working, sometimes the misconception is to swing in the opposite direction — abdication, free-for-all, laissez faire. And so this mo...more
...ee, and I’ve spoken to him as well, but it’s so interesting to talk to you and see, not only what your insights have been from the paper you wrote on self-managing organisations but also how it fits with your work around psychological safety and teaming. What can you share? AE: I love that work with Mike and Mi...more
..., and it’s not the first book we read, but Frederic Laloux’s ‘Reinventing Organisations’, and there are some very profound case studies in there. The self-managing organisation to me as a construct is much like the learning organisation in that it’s huge. It’s huge, it’s important, it’s aspirational, it’s what s...more
...want. So those are huge aspirations, and psychological safety… that’s just one small, but important, piece of these larger goals. So the idea of the self-managing organisation is something we can readily imagine — and there are examples of it — existing as a fully fleshed out, real-world phenomenon. And psychol...more
...d phenomenon. And psychological safety is just this sort of psychological, interpersonal experience that I would argue, it’s hard to have a genuinely self-managing organisation or learning organisation without some level of psychological safety. But they’re very different research targets — one has got lots of m...more
...LG: Yeah, and for me why that paper was so exciting when I read it was because I come from a field where people are practising organisational self-management in various different ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to d...more
... ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to distinguish what is a self-managing organisation and what is it not. I think there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on diff...more
...hink there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on different scales on different aspects of self-management. And as you say, the psychological safety piece for me, is something that’s being talked about less, the less tangible stuff, the interpersonal stuff...more
...ction between management and leadership and that anyone, regardless of their role, can step into leadership of some kind. And I’m thinking about in a self-managing team or organisation, it’s kind of essential that people step into leadership, that it becomes leaderful. What would you say are some things that if ...more
...ing responsible for what shows up around me. So some people listening will be on journeys of their own — many listeners I know are exploring being a self-managing organisation or they’re on some stage of that journey. It would be great if you could share some advice or wisdom in terms of some pitfalls people ca...more
...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” r...more
...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” rather than: “OK, that’s interesting, so that didn’t work, so what did we learn from that? Wha...more
... doesn’t work either. AE: Exactly. We underestimate the degree to which the old model doesn’t work. And then we think: “Let’s try something new like self-managing teams, let’s try Agile — oh it didn’t work, so we go back to the old way.” But the old way wasn’t working, we just didn’t know it wasn’t working. ...more
...n the future? AE: You know, I’m most curious about how do we take these research-based ideas, and that includes psychological safety and teaming and self-managing organisations… and maybe this will sound contradictory, but I really would like to develop more of a playbook. And of course, we’ve been talking long...more

Margaret Heffernan on how to act our way out of the status quo trap

...h and started recruiting nurses in those small self managed teams. What about organisations that are really wanting to move in this direction towards self management who are traditionally structured - and I know you have worked with and written about large global organisations who have done some innovative experim...more
...anage that? Because that's a different challenge, I imagine. Margaret Heffernan: Well it's quite interesting. I think people make a great deal about self management. And it's important. But when I think about my own career - so 13 years working at the BBC, which is a pretty traditional hierarchical organisation -...more
...it. A lot of organisations I'm working with can declare they're not going to have managers anymore. That means everyone can make decisions, and we're self managing now. And people are often surprised when no one steps in because it takes more than just your word or permission. You have to see it to believe it, a...more
...re than just your word or permission. You have to see it to believe it, almost. Margaret Heffernan: Yes, I think that's right. But I also don't think self management solves all problems. I think there's a great tendency in business thinking, to pursue the hunt for the silver bullet, that one thing that changes eve...more
...t we mostly work in are enormously complex, and one single thing or one single idea doesn't change everything. But I think that the the advantage of self management is that it makes much clearer who's responsible for what. And the things that people decide to do for themselves, they are much more likely to take r...more
...lvement, become better educated. And by their better education, start to understand how to make good choices. And this can come back to your theme of self management. This absolutely cannot be done by handing down edicts, by shaming people, or by bossing people around - it has got to be co-created, I believe, with...more

Aaron Dignan on being complexity conscious and people positive

... time, was fluid and was actually co-owned from a very early stage. What I've learned is that you can share a commons, and have self organisation and self management, if the initial kind of intent and boundaries and simple rules are in place to protect and preserve the membership. If you don't have that stuff comp...more
...bout what it could and should be, rather than being part of something with an intent, and then going out and manifesting that intent together through self management. So that's one thing I've struggled with - when to be heavy-handed, and when not to. And what is the work of a founder or a creator, in making the i...more
...ed with - when to be heavy-handed, and when not to. And what is the work of a founder or a creator, in making the initial conditions for success in a self managing system, versus the steady state that comes later? And I think I have misread that in the past. So I've sort of been like, 'Oh, we're there, but we're...more
... space of - is what I'm doing worth sharing? Is that thing that is in need worth my investment? There's a little bit of a phenomenon that happens in self managing cultures of waiting for someone else to get to it, right? Because if it isn't a role that we've defined, if it isn't an agreement we've made, but it'...more
...Lisa Gill: Yes, totally. What advice, then would you give to people listening who are in an organisation that maybe curious about becoming self managing? Or they are wanting to do things differently in the organisation at whatever level they are in their company? What advice would you give them in ter...more

Buurtzorg and the power of self-managed teams of nurses

...n service of helping patients lead more autonomous and fulfilling lives. So today, there are some 15,000 nurses, and they're split into around 1,000, self managing teams supported by coaches. It's a business model that's inspired people all over the world, because it's achieved incredible cost savings. And patie...more
...ss model. But it's quite another thing to hear it from the nurses themselves, the people on the frontline, and what it really feels like to work in a self-managing organisation. So it was an absolute dream to find myself in the garden of Marian's lovely house, sitting having a cup of tea with two of her colleag...more
...ging. And I think probably my favourite bit is when I asked them at the end, what advice they would give to people who are interested in working in a self-managing way, especially managers or CEOs. And the advice they give is just priceless. It's brilliant. So it's an absolute pleasure to share this conversation...more
...Lisa Gill: Tell me about that. How does that support you, the IT system? Because I understand it's quite key to having self-managing teams at Buurtzorg. Chila: Because it makes everything very simple. You can find everything. So for one client, you can order stuff for the client o...more
...haviours that we associate with managers anyway. In any case, I think my interpretation, or maybe my belief in general is that there is leadership in self-managing teams, but it's a chosen kind of leadership. It's a leadership where we all step into our own authority in different ways and it's dynamic. Its leade...more

Peter Koenig on source, money and consciousness

...myself in that, because I, myself have been on a journey of being a bit in my green blind spots), come across a lot of people who are wanting to be a self-managing organisation, they (are) wanting to be more conscious in how they collaborate together, and I'm seeing them really suffer in things like, as Tom desc...more
...oposals, to be a source of initiatives, and when that happens, I think only when both of those shifts in those directions happen can you have a truly self-managing organisation or a truly teal organisation. That shift needs to happen in both of those different power dynamics, I think. Yes, again, totally agree w...more
...y're willing to explore it on another level. I really do think that in terms of people who are interested in exploring these new ways of working and self-management and all of this stuff. I think many of us in the green world have stories about money such as, money is dirty or bad, and organisations can have a te...more
...Lisa Gill: So in wrapping up our conversation, there are people listening, who are on journeys of their own, perhaps towards becoming a self-managing organisation, or maybe they're on their own journey, as a source or doing their own inner work. So, with all of the work that you've done over the ye...more

Margaret Wheatley on leadership and Warriors for the Human Spirit

...nd it was published in 1992, I was as optimistic as anyone could be that all you have to do to create positive change in the world, especially around self management was to present a solid theory backed up by lots and lots of evidence, organisational evidence. And my belief, which is quite naive, was that, people...more
...with open arms and be very thankful for it. Because the paradigm of the new science of self-organising systems, which is another way of understanding self-managing systems - you can organise and get order without control - that was the fundamental 'aha' moment for me when I was studying the new science. I mean, ...more
...he said this in the late 80s, to which he then put the question - and if this is true, that you'll get 35, minimum 35% increased productivity through self management, then the question he asked was, why isn't every organisation working on a self managed basis? Because everyone says, well, we want productivity, we ...more
...hey are. They're little moments, which, for some people now we think, Oh, that's a sign of hope. You know, we're going to convert all corporations to self management, because this works. So well. Yes, it works. So well. We've been doing that since the 70s. And I don't want to sound like an old person, but I am, an...more

Bill Fischer and Simone Cicero on Haier and the entrepreneurial organisation

...nies are using micro-enterprise structures. Of course, Zappos is much more immature, let’s say, with respect to Haier. And both of them are all about self-management. So for example, to be hired at Zappos, you go to three months training, and then if, at the end of the training, they feel like you do not cultural...more
...me practical, actionable insights that we can take from the Haier model? So people listening to this podcast tend to be people who are interested in self-management or more decentralised ways of working, or maybe they’re in a totally bureaucratic public sector organisation and wanting some kind of antidote or lif...more

Jorge Silva on horizontal structures and participatory culture at 10Pines

...y hopes or ambitions is to... it's not the best word right now because of the pandemic crisis, but to spread the virus of the flat structure, and the self-managing team. I think we were doing this with a lot of companies. We have a lot of companies that are being created right now - and they say, I want to work ...more

Keith McCandless and Henri Lipmanowicz on acting your way into a new kind of organising with Liberating Structures

...lar, Kaospilot in Denmark, I don't know if you're familiar with it, Lisa, they were kind of ready for the 'how to' part. Like they'd been really into self-managing, self-organising, studied up. So a couple years ago, I was invited into one of their classes to just introduce the structures. We formed a little ens...more