Transcripts

Self Management

Ep. 55 Frederic Laloux with an invitation to reclaim integrity and aliveness

...ferent questions now… So, the question we decided we’d like to dig into is this: Thinking about these three ideas that you wrote about in your book (self-management, wholeness and evolutionary purpose), are these intentions going to help us have the difficult conversations that we need to have about the fact that...more
... I do that? I’m trained I should have known.” But we don’t question because of the power structure. F Laloux: It’s interesting because I almost take self-management for a given now. And so, I’m really curious, even in the absence of any power structure that makes us fearful, you know, how could we engage with the...more
...ded in order for us to be able to sit with that question? Because I agree with you that power structures is only one piece of it, but I think even in self-managing organisations… sometimes it seems almost like we need guardrails, you know, things like Nonviolent Communication and practices like this that help us...more
...s that they felt incredibly powerless about them. And it was an incredibly uncomfortable feeling. So these were pretty traditional organisations, not self-managing organisations. These are some of the most powerful CEOs in Brazil. And they realised that they were powerful within a very limited domain of acceptab...more
... I have a good friend in France, Nicolas Hennon, who was a young leader of a fashion brand [Kiabi] and he did amazing things. Like he pushed towards self-management, a huge push for wholeness, very deep listening… And Kiabi, just went through the roof, like in an industry that’s pretty shattered, they were doing...more
...h right now, a really big one, is Decathlon, this sports goods company. They have a top management but it’s sympathetic to a lot of things, you know, self-management and so on. But there have been people at the bottom and the middle of the pyramid who have really been pushing the envelope without asking for permis...more
...hat we’re talking about now, like what are the human things we need to do? Because I think I’ve been experiencing that, you know, just talking about self-management and implementing some kind of structure or some kind of process or some kind of framework is less interesting. It actually seems to me that what make...more
...y.” So I couldn’t agree more with you. I mean, I am a bit of a systems geek, right? And I love to think about these systems like, you know, how could self-managing systems work… but ultimately, this is all just in service to some deep yearning that we have, or some clarity around like, “I will no longer do this....more
... And one way is like, “Wow, this is gonna be hard. This is unprecedented, you know, we’re going against 5,000 years of human conditioning in terms of self-management, real growth pains…” And another way to hold it is, “This is going to be the adventure of a lifetime. And this is going to be fun and deep down, we ...more
... people who don’t know K2K in the Basque Country is this group of people who have helped 60 companies, maybe it might be 80 or 100 companies, move to self-management and they have an amazing track record of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transfo...more
...ord of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transformed a much larger company towards self-management — hugely successful. And it was just so interesting talking to him and then talking to his colleagues who were all saying, “Yeah, this is so incredib...more
...about this amazing company in Sweden, Björn Lundén, this publishing company and the founder is this amazing character. He didn’t read any books about self-management or anything but has designed the company as it is because he knows no other way to be. Why wouldn’t he involve people decisions and so on. And so to ...more
...f have a deep programme to change people’s mindsets.” Maybe another example that comes up often is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, w...more
...ften is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, we train everybody in giving feedback.” And so with Wilber’s quadrants, it’s sort of a behaviou...more
... after a while, they came back and said: “No, we’re not over staffed” and she was furious. And she said, “Yeah, maybe people aren’t mature enough for self-management. This is not working.” And we just looked at it like, yeah, but you are still trying to solve that problem. For them, you are still having a role in...more
...y. Who knows how it’s gonna play out, but I think on all of the three breakthroughs right now that we talked about, it’s been an accelerator, like on self-management. Right? We suddenly realise: people can work from home and we don’t know how many hours they work, and we can sort of trust them. We have no choice b...more
...uge inspiration to me, and many of the people who listen to this podcast, so thank you. Leadermorphosis is a podcast exploring the emerging world of self-managing organisations and radical ways of working. Hosted by Lisa Gill, each episode features a guest thought leader or practitioner offering a unique perspe...more

Ep. 57 Nand Kishore Chaudhary from Jaipur Rugs on love, collective consciousness and self-management

...ou're talking to people like Frederic Laloux, Doug Kirkpatrick, Miki Kashtan, and you're really interested in taking it to the next level in terms of self-management. And really kind of decentralising. What is important to you about learning more about this and helping the organisation evolve in that way? NK Chaud...more
...the head office in 1999 in Jaipur. People in the head office did not have the understanding about people, processes, and products. At the grassroots, self-management was already there. But at the head office, everyone went for a command and control approach. Nobody understood the importance of the frontline and ev...more
...r company. To further bring speed and scale, we needed to bring simplicity and focus in our business. For this, I started researching and came across self-management principles and then I found: this is my way....more
...Lisa Gill: What are you finding are the biggest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in try...more
...gest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in...more
...n most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become th...more
...wn experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become the ambassadors of the same in our organisation. The second is: to create the right and relevant training programme to br...more
...g programme to bring a mindset change in the whole organisation. So now we are seeking help from people around the world who have already implemented self-management across their organisations....more
...ill: Thank you. I know that you're familiar with the company Yash Pakka and I've spoken to Ved Krishna there and a lot of people have said to me that self-management isn't possible in countries like India, where there's a strong hierarchical culture. I'm curious, what do you think about that? What is your take? Is...more
...est, if this comes together, will give birth to a new humanity. India as a country is a huge talent goldmine, and to harness this enormous potential, self-management would be the key. The youth of new India is highly passionate and all they need is love, direction, and freedom....more
...e satisfaction now that there's proof, right? So what advice would you give to people who are listening? Who, like you, are interested in introducing self-management principles to fulfil the purpose of their organisation even more strongly? What advice would you give them in terms of what you're learning so far? N...more
...lf, the more you will find yourself. The problem is not outside, but inside. And it begins with you. Second, people need love, direction and freedom. Self-management is about empowering the frontline and the doers. We must not forget that they are the heroes and kings of the business....more
...Lisa Gill: I think this is something that I'm learning more and more that if we really want everyone to flourish and create an environment based on self-management principles, it's not going to happen by chance. And it's not going to happen only by introducing new structures. But it's so much about intention and...more
...ux and Doug and Miki, you mentioned what you've learned from Otto Scharmer, for example. Are there other key lessons that you've learned so far about self-management that you think would be useful to share? NK Chaudhary: I think when I meet all these great, great people, I see they are highly conscious people. And...more
...ness, by bringing that mindfulness. And we can only create the new future when we are mindful. So I think consciousness will be the way to bring that self-management. The more conscious the leaders, the more consciousness, self-awareness [there will be in the] staff - it will make a difference. Because the future ...more
... other companies. So the research says that bureaucracy is the biggest problem and the only companies that will survive are those who will go towards self-management. So this is proved by the research....more
... satisfied person. I can create a difference in the life of my people. So I'm very happy that the time has come. And so many people are talking about self-management. I'm really happy to see that....more

Ep. 45 Amy Edmondson on psychological safety and the future of work

... this four-box model about how to create what you call a “Learning Zone”. Because I think, especially when I‘m talking to people about exploring more self-managing or Agile ways of working, sometimes the misconception is to swing in the opposite direction — abdication, free-for-all, laissez faire. And so this mo...more
...ee, and I’ve spoken to him as well, but it’s so interesting to talk to you and see, not only what your insights have been from the paper you wrote on self-managing organisations but also how it fits with your work around psychological safety and teaming. What can you share? AE: I love that work with Mike and Mi...more
..., and it’s not the first book we read, but Frederic Laloux’s ‘Reinventing Organisations’, and there are some very profound case studies in there. The self-managing organisation to me as a construct is much like the learning organisation in that it’s huge. It’s huge, it’s important, it’s aspirational, it’s what s...more
...want. So those are huge aspirations, and psychological safety… that’s just one small, but important, piece of these larger goals. So the idea of the self-managing organisation is something we can readily imagine — and there are examples of it — existing as a fully fleshed out, real-world phenomenon. And psychol...more
...d phenomenon. And psychological safety is just this sort of psychological, interpersonal experience that I would argue, it’s hard to have a genuinely self-managing organisation or learning organisation without some level of psychological safety. But they’re very different research targets — one has got lots of m...more
...LG: Yeah, and for me why that paper was so exciting when I read it was because I come from a field where people are practicing organisational self-management in various different ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to d...more
... ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to distinguish what is a self-managing organisation and what is it not. I think there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on diff...more
...hink there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on different scales on different aspects of self-management. And as you say, the psychological safety piece for me, is something that’s being talked about less, the less tangible stuff, the interpersonal stuff...more
...ction between management and leadership and that anyone, regardless of their role, can step into leadership of some kind. And I’m thinking about in a self-managing team or organisation, it’s kind of essential that people step into leadership, that it becomes leaderful. What would you say are some things that if ...more
...ing responsible for what shows up around me. So some people listening will be on journeys of their own — many listeners I know are exploring being a self-managing organisation or they’re on some stage of that journey. It would be great if you could share some advice or wisdom in terms of some pitfalls people ca...more
...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” r...more
...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” rather than: “OK, that’s interesting, so that didn’t work, so what did we learn from that? Wha...more
... doesn’t work either. AE: Exactly. We underestimate the degree to which the old model doesn’t work. And then we think: “Let’s try something new like self-managing teams, let’s try Agile — oh it didn’t work, so we go back to the old way.” But the old way wasn’t working, we just didn’t know it wasn’t working. ...more
...n the future? AE: You know, I’m most curious about how do we take these research-based ideas, and that includes psychological safety and teaming and self-managing organisations… and maybe this will sound contradictory, but I really would like to develop more of a playbook. And of course, we’ve been talking long...more

Ep. 26 Buurtzorg and the power of self-managed teams of nurses

...n service of helping patients lead more autonomous and fulfilling lives. So today, there are some 15,000 nurses, and they're split into around 1,000, self managing teams supported by coaches. It's a business model that's inspired people all over the world, because it's achieved incredible cost savings. And patie...more
...ss model. But it's quite another thing to hear it from the nurses themselves, the people on the frontline, and what it really feels like to work in a self-managing organisation. So it was an absolute dream to find myself in the garden of Marian's lovely house, sitting having a cup of tea with two of her colleag...more
...ging. And I think probably my favourite bit is when I asked them at the end, what advice they would give to people who are interested in working in a self-managing way, especially managers or CEOs. And the advice they give is just priceless. It's brilliant. So it's an absolute pleasure to share this conversation...more
...Lisa Gill: Tell me about that. How does that support you, the IT system? Because I understand it's quite key to having self-managing teams at Buurtzorg. Chila: Because it makes everything very simple. You can find everything. So for one client, you can order stuff for the client o...more
...haviours that we associate with managers anyway. In any case, I think my interpretation, or maybe my belief in general is that there is leadership in self-managing teams, but it's a chosen kind of leadership. It's a leadership where we all step into our own authority in different ways and it's dynamic. Its leade...more

Ep. 54 Bill Fischer and Simone Cicero on Haier and the entrepreneurial organisation

...nies are using micro-enterprise structures. Of course, Zappos is much more immature, let’s say, with respect to Haier. And both of them are all about self-management. So for example, to be hired at Zappos, you go to three months training, and then if, at the end of the training, they feel like you do not cultural...more
...me practical, actionable insights that we can take from the Haier model? So people listening to this podcast tend to be people who are interested in self-management or more decentralised ways of working, or maybe they’re in a totally bureaucratic public sector organisation and wanting some kind of antidote or lif...more