Transcripts

Power

Ep. 37 Miki Kashtan on the three shifts needed for self-managing organisations to thrive

...nd she's perhaps best known for her work as a teacher and practitioner of Nonviolent Communication. She writes about and speaks about big topics like power, patriarchy, the gift economy. And more recently, I think she's becoming really influential as someone contributing to the discussion around what it ...more
...s humans and the systems that we're operating in, in order to collaborate in a self managing way. So it's a really deep conversation about navigating power, about mindset shifts, new levels of dialogue and self awareness. It's kind of impossible to do it justice in a summary, really. But Miki talks with ...more
...Lisa Gill: Something else that's connected to this, I guess, is this whole topic of power, and patriarchy, which I know is something that you've written about and explored at length as well. And, again, I think in self managing systems, th...more
...k in self managing systems, this is another total paradigm shift. And it's more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." There's so many other power dynamics and relationships to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I know that you've w...more
...other total paradigm shift. And it's more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." There's so many other power dynamics and relationships to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I know that you've written about, for example, these usefu...more
... more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." There's so many other power dynamics and relationships to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I know that you've written about, for example, these useful terms of power over and power with...more
...nd relationships to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I know that you've written about, for example, these useful terms of power over and power with. And that's quite a helpful distinction, I think for this topic. Miki Kashtan: Yeah, first of all, I want to give credit to the w...more
...s to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I know that you've written about, for example, these useful terms of power over and power with. And that's quite a helpful distinction, I think for this topic. Miki Kashtan: Yeah, first of all, I want to give credit to the woman who invent...more
...up disappearing. So I'm trying to give her credit. She did this 100 years ago, she was talking about these things well before anyone else was. And so power over essentially, is about me, deciding what is going to happen without involving other people in the decision. It doesn't necessarily mean I don't c...more
...at what I'm doing is for your benefit, that for as long as you are not directly or indirectly participating in deciding things that impact you, it is power over in the sense that it is done to you. And I don't necessarily think that it is hermetically always in all conditions bad. You know, for example, ...more
...clare it necessary on the basis of fear that collaboration is just not workable, rather than on the basis of specific circumstances and criteria. And power with is essentially about honouring the autonomy and freedom of other people. It's not just caring about your needs, in general, it's about specifica...more
...end up having decisions that are less robust, less wise, that fall apart, but you then have to rethink. So that's this distinction that I see between power over and power with. And to make the shift, the shift has to happen in three different places. One is, in the person who holds the structural power, ...more
...ecisions that are less robust, less wise, that fall apart, but you then have to rethink. So that's this distinction that I see between power over and power with. And to make the shift, the shift has to happen in three different places. One is, in the person who holds the structural power, the person who ...more
...n power over and power with. And to make the shift, the shift has to happen in three different places. One is, in the person who holds the structural power, the person who has the possibility of using their power over others. We all have the habit of power over but we don't necessarily have the capacity ...more
...hift has to happen in three different places. One is, in the person who holds the structural power, the person who has the possibility of using their power over others. We all have the habit of power over but we don't necessarily have the capacity to do it if we don't have structural power. So I once wor...more
.... One is, in the person who holds the structural power, the person who has the possibility of using their power over others. We all have the habit of power over but we don't necessarily have the capacity to do it if we don't have structural power. So I once worked with a group of union activists and ther...more
...of using their power over others. We all have the habit of power over but we don't necessarily have the capacity to do it if we don't have structural power. So I once worked with a group of union activists and there was a very profound moment when they became willing to admit that if they had power, they...more
...tural power. So I once worked with a group of union activists and there was a very profound moment when they became willing to admit that if they had power, they would treat management as poorly as management was treating them. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is gi...more
...nt when they became willing to admit that if they had power, they would treat management as poorly as management was treating them. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is given to us by having structural power. So a person who has structural power needs to transform th...more
...s poorly as management was treating them. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is given to us by having structural power. So a person who has structural power needs to transform their habits in order to exercise power with, because otherwise, you will be caught in this ...more
...em. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is given to us by having structural power. So a person who has structural power needs to transform their habits in order to exercise power with, because otherwise, you will be caught in this very odd, painful contradiction of whe...more
...but the capacity is given to us by having structural power. So a person who has structural power needs to transform their habits in order to exercise power with, because otherwise, you will be caught in this very odd, painful contradiction of where you want collaboration, and you want things to go your w...more
...on what you want, but that through mutual influencing, something will change. That's the internal change on the part of the person who has structural power. The internal change on the part of the person who doesn't have structural power, is to overcome fear and habit of deference. And there is a risk be...more
...'s the internal change on the part of the person who has structural power. The internal change on the part of the person who doesn't have structural power, is to overcome fear and habit of deference. And there is a risk because if the person with power hasn't made the shift, standing up for what you kno...more
... the part of the person who doesn't have structural power, is to overcome fear and habit of deference. And there is a risk because if the person with power hasn't made the shift, standing up for what you know is true does carry risks. So ultimately, on an individual basis, changing it from below is the h...more
...anging it from below is the highest skill level necessary – to be able to collaborate with someone who isn't in a collaborative mindset, and also has power in relation to you. That is the biggest deal, that is where nonviolence really gets tested. So they're internal changes. There are also changes in th...more
... know, it's sort of free for all. And I think there are some parallels, I could see when I was reading about some of your writing around the myths of power with as well. What are some of these myths and misconceptions in your experience? And how can we address them and look about look at them in a more m...more
... at them in a more mindful way? Miki Kashtan: Yeah. So one of them I already addressed, which is the idea that unilateral decision making or or using power in this kind of way is fundamentally bad, which blocks things from being able to happen in the circumstances that we already talked about. Another on...more
... work out, especially if the sum total of how people want to use the resources that are within the organisation – which is not just money, it's human power, it's machinery, it's everything that is there – if the sum total of how people want to use it exceeds the sum total of the resources that exist, whi...more
...vial task. It's not something you can leave to chance, because if you leave it to chance, information will be clogged, because anyone with structural power will fall back on doing the information on an as needed basis, because of not trusting that people won't take advantage of information that they have...more
...ople won't take advantage of information that they have or in any event, they're not smart enough to be able to use it. And the people who don't have power will keep information to themselves, especially information that is challenging or complicated, because they will be afraid of the messenger being ki...more
...ough knowing what impact we have on others. So those are the five systems. And those systems can be set up, to be collaborative, to be supportive of 'power with', to be supportive of collaborative decision making, to be supportive of empowerment, to be supportive of support for everyone, to be supportive...more
... collaborative decision making, to be supportive of empowerment, to be supportive of support for everyone, to be supportive of attending to issues of power and privilege that come into the organisation from the outside, and are within the organisation, all of that. Or they can completely replicate the ex...more
...ication. We've talked a bit about structures and systems. You mentioned those three shifts that need to happen; within the people who have structural power, the people who don't, and then the system itself. In terms of those first two, in a quote unquote traditional organisation, it might be the managers...more
...ou have the entire universe of the problem. And you can do that when, if you are trying to work out something, and let's say you are in a position of power, and it would be easy to kind of like impose your will. Instead, really inquire as to what's important to everyone, and then you can start making pro...more
...n, then I'm willing to stretch more than if I just know what they want. And that's just how it is. So there's also a way in which if I want to be in 'power with', I need to find a way to let everyone know that they matter. Because that is what will support all of us in moving from digging our heels in ou...more
...ng to check for what's important to you, it's not going to be immediately focused on the solution. "Are you okay to go this way? Especially if I have power? The person will say yes, but if I say, what do you see as the obstacles to implementing this, the person will give me the information. And I'm just ...more

Ep. 54 Bill Fischer and Simone Cicero on Haier and the entrepreneurial organisation

...ant thing for him. It’s really about knowing about the work of others, and engaging with ideas. He’s not there to make more money or to exercise more power. When you’re there it feels like you should be there reading books, instead of managing a company. So, I think this kind of cultural approach, it’s ...more
... organisation. But at the same time, it’s really about this idea that we are all in the same space, we can engage with ideas, we can have the special power to discover this all together, and I think this is really remarkable. ...more
...s. **And so, you know, I think in a sense, Zhang Ruimin really plays that role very well, because he is self-confident. And he certainly has a lot of power within the organisation. I think he’s used that power to, as Simone says, build an organisational architecture and style, that really expects people...more
... really plays that role very well, because he is self-confident. And he certainly has a lot of power within the organisation. I think he’s used that power to, as Simone says, build an organisational architecture and style, that really expects people to step into the entrepreneurial void at the frontline...more
.... And, and also like people like Jan Carlzon from Scandinavian Airlines back in the 80s and 90s, saying, “The people closest to the customer need the power to make decisions” and so on. And it never really took off. And so, perhaps, it will be an example like Haier — this kind of Chinese, incredible sort...more
...h that trouble. But I think that the other thing that has happened at Haier is that Haier has not only changed the organisational structure, and the power within the organisation, but they’ve also changed the distribution of wealth. So at Haier the way that value is distributed makes it economically wor...more
...I had on the podcast, and she talked about that as well as structural shifts, there -needs to be two shifts within. And one is in the people who have power — or have previously had power — in this case managers. And the other is in people who don’t have power — or historically haven’t had power — you kno...more
...alked about that as well as structural shifts, there -needs to be two shifts within. And one is in the people who have power — or have previously had power — in this case managers. And the other is in people who don’t have power — or historically haven’t had power — you know, employees. So like you said...more
...fts within. And one is in the people who have power — or have previously had power — in this case managers. And the other is in people who don’t have power — or historically haven’t had power — you know, employees. So like you said in that in that example, if employees — which is an outdated word even i...more
... who have power — or have previously had power — in this case managers. And the other is in people who don’t have power — or historically haven’t had power — you know, employees. So like you said in that in that example, if employees — which is an outdated word even in itself — but you can give permissi...more

Ep. 55 Frederic Laloux with an invitation to reclaim integrity and aliveness

...pills and, and even the Holocaust, and how because of the way our brains are wired, certain things help to keep us in that cognitive dissonance. And power structures and hierarchies is one of the things that keeps that in place. So there’s an example of nurses in an experiment who are given instructions...more
...ed about it, it’s only afterwards that they realise, “Yeah, why did I do that? I’m trained I should have known.” But we don’t question because of the power structure. F Laloux: It’s interesting because I almost take self-management for a given now. And so, I’m really curious, even in the absence of any ...more
... structure. F Laloux: It’s interesting because I almost take self-management for a given now. And so, I’m really curious, even in the absence of any power structure that makes us fearful, you know, how could we engage with these questions? And, and to me, these are really juicy questions. And I believe ...more
...makes us fearful, you know, how could we engage with these questions? And, and to me, these are really juicy questions. And I believe that beyond the power structures, some of the things that that hold us back are, for one, the sense that we need to have an answer. When I engaged these these 15 CEOs, on...more
... Gill: Yeah, and I’m curious: what is your sense of what’s needed in order for us to be able to sit with that question? Because I agree with you that power structures is only one piece of it, but I think even in self-managing organisations… sometimes it seems almost like we need guardrails, you know, thi...more

Ep. 57 Nand Kishore Chaudhary from Jaipur Rugs on love, collective consciousness and self-management

...ire. To support the rapid growth of the business I had to hire experienced professionals but all that put me upside down. I learned that knowledge is power. But too much knowledge and knowledge gained without practice doubles ego. Practitioners sometime get their skills without having the knowledge to br...more
...l lead to a further stage of co-creation. In 2019, Raj Sisodia in his book 'The Healing Organisation' published a case study on Jaipur Rugs about the power of innocence. I believe that innocence could be the future of the business. Innocent people, just like children have the power to see and understand ...more
... Jaipur Rugs about the power of innocence. I believe that innocence could be the future of the business. Innocent people, just like children have the power to see and understand things others can't. And this will transform the business around the world. Jaipur Rugs has become a business ashram, a place f...more
... was getting more consciousness and now I'm happy to say that I have developed a level of consciousness where I can see what I do. So now I have more power to choose. Now I am a good listener. And I became more responsive. And it changed my behaviour so much, that it became easier for me to bring the res...more
...of putting it: to separate identity and role. Because I think that's what many people are afraid of, as you say, to sort of let go of having ultimate power, to let go of being the hero, if you're the CEO is scary and feels like a loss for people sometimes I think. But if you keep role and identity separa...more